From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 00:15:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5122F1065670 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 00:15:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from exprod7og122.obsmtp.com (exprod7og122.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B118FC0A for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 00:15:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob122.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUHDJmNYsHBfNyX+ty6htzqfUemlRl+0G@postini.com; Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:15:26 PDT Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:14:24 -0700 Received: from chaos.jnpr.net (chaos.jnpr.net [172.24.29.229]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id q970ENh00745 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from chaos.jnpr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9878F58094 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT) To: X-Mailer: MH-E 7.82+cvs; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 22.3.1 Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:14:23 -0700 From: Simon Gerraty Message-ID: <20121007001423.9878F58094@chaos.jnpr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: bsd.own.mk - just let WITHOUT_* take precedence X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 00:15:27 -0000 After being bitten by: make: "/b/sjg/work/fbsd-head/src/share/mk/bsd.own.mk" line 490: WITH_CTF and WITHOUT_CTF can't both be set. I took a look at bsd.own.mk I'm not sure what's so evil about setting both WITH_ and WITHOUT_ especially when bits of buildworld, buildkernel etc, set WITHOUT_ (which triggers the problem for me). All that seems necessary is a clear rule - "WITHOUT_ wins". Thus the patch below solve my problem. Index: share/mk/bsd.own.mk =================================================================== --- share/mk/bsd.own.mk (revision 241871) +++ share/mk/bsd.own.mk (working copy) @@ -468,9 +468,6 @@ __DEFAULT_NO_OPTIONS+=FDT # MK_* options which default to "yes". # .for var in ${__DEFAULT_YES_OPTIONS} -.if defined(WITH_${var}) && defined(WITHOUT_${var}) -.error WITH_${var} and WITHOUT_${var} can't both be set. -.endif .if defined(MK_${var}) .error MK_${var} can't be set by a user. .endif @@ -486,13 +483,10 @@ MK_${var}:= yes # MK_* options which default to "no". # .for var in ${__DEFAULT_NO_OPTIONS} -.if defined(WITH_${var}) && defined(WITHOUT_${var}) -.error WITH_${var} and WITHOUT_${var} can't both be set. -.endif .if defined(MK_${var}) .error MK_${var} can't be set by a user. .endif -.if defined(WITH_${var}) +.if defined(WITH_${var}) && !defined(WITHOUT_${var}) MK_${var}:= yes .else MK_${var}:= no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 11:10:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1DA106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941B48FC14; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419236BED; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:10:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BCC9983F9; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:10:06 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:10:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> (Devin Teske's message of "Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:48:50 -0700") Message-ID: <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 11:10:09 -0000 Devin Teske writes: > What does everybody think? I think it's a terrible idea. What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 15:53:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8541065670; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:53:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8338FC12; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:53:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id n9so4139547oag.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 08:53:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HSvd1kqTP0ylivSgET5ZtXOPixtebq45/lORsGdzUug=; b=nUBNfK7I43OIeuFy4n7OrA7ihhyUXvX04wtMf97ZQcSY/XzSt23GaIkUrsNF2O9fcr o3Sfa7Mc79JKlxbVxkRJtA7eDbutBtbO+OTq0rJtexd2AHCwrjpCeJ5sFV5OGxgI4frI 3Ydw/ImNvNtMlHBuygdoPdHkhyv385GboeT/YyLqk7QVpXfXR07pW/47H9tUNvkKJQUt kgFd+ubGMQPFdkebIisfvxSWlAqs9DnDMBSV/LRPHFspeF28APDEP1D5RPVDpFScR1fg XsjnnxSSDKyl4+BlOcVaehvIsS31wdQHlsWcK249Z1Pz9sMVkDl3olwIb7bbdhqPNe9g Bwng== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.30.136 with SMTP id s8mr11028017oeh.81.1349625206655; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 08:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.167.202 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 08:53:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 08:53:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Devin Teske Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:53:27 -0000 On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Devin Teske wro= te: > Hello, > > I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. > > This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full > > I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full > > The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): > > http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full > > What does everybody think? A few things: 1. It makes things cleaner for humans who want to get essential tasks done, but it also makes it a little bit harder for automation to "dive down" into the next level and test stuff (unless OFC the beastie menu was completely bypassed, which might be something that I need to do in the future for automation as the bootloader prompt never really changes). 2. This makes it harder for people rolling custom patches on the bootloader to continue using them, but I suppose porting is "all in a day's work", right :)? 3. There isn't really a limit on how much the submenus could or should grow; oh, and Forth can be a black art of sorts. Even though I can see its merits, I do see where des@ is coming from. It's good to see some discussion before commit, but I think it deserves a bit more thought and some rough sketches to come up with a solid (or at least squishy) plan on how to proceed. > NOTE: This change is not trivial. It took me nearly a month of hacking to= produce this _and_ almost 1,000 changed lines of code are required. Featur= es such as submenus, dynamic menus and menu items, and more were added and = I'm at a point where I can commit this back to the tree. I'm sure we want t= hese features, but we have a choice of keeping the menu as-is without any c= hanges _or_ we can choose to use the new features (as exhibited in this pro= posal -- where the boot options are sidled-off into a submenu). That might be harder to work with. sysinstall was usable to a point, but then it got unusable after a period of time because of the way libdialog was changed, and then unfortunately it was abandoned after a while. We'd rather avoid those usability "mistakes" in the future if at all possible. As always, as usable, simple, and maintainable as possible is what we should shoot for in the project. if it makes sense, things maybe should be split up into separate menus with a common boilerplate *shrugs*. > P.S. The hope is to one day utilize _all_ of the features I'm adding to o= ne day have something like this (a functioning mock-up, but unfinished curr= ently): http://twitter.com/devinteske/status/254419042104909824 Hmmm... Thanks! -Garrett From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 16:34:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D464106566B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:34:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5FD8FC14; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:34:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p5DD45DBD.dip.t-dialin.net [93.212.93.189]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24737844006; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:34:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from unknown (IO.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.12]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 882621F16; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:34:35 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1349627675; bh=AZt5mF8iEhBItv9pjBXBc+TnLpDjJLtW29RyrRwNGW0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=3LkdX9VlV8LUlodNG+jfehPAkw0rl5CkT9yvj/I+ou2Oy40GMQmjOML7aGPwtd1IF +RLRZYA3mAP7KljgEwaVDpFwX+vXyOi1kgCIfaMtbd5x7RnyRP3N32Z9q9o2ImeHKg sW+57QczyglJG5kEeT0ITFic+qixiLyFjulN8wqrzbyKBV1Q8RBSUSMgorv5OXd55I wg98045u4d86MemaYfcQ29ErzH1wZgJ/kvpUhZVpCijIE5QMBYpmvuxsre5Pr13bXL oEI6lgL+HMCgIzEu34/jyaZT6UbnJ8riS3Bgv0YEhGwnkSVqkASo1Pk5HmZrWqtz8w V5QHYpOvThc4w== Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:34:33 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Devin Teske Message-ID: <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> In-Reply-To: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0cvs30 (GTK+ 2.24.10; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 24737844006.AF891 X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.091, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.02, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1350232481.96761@zbf/RDk711R05HAi4AeDqw X-EBL-Spam-Status: No Cc: devin.teske@fisglobal.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:34:46 -0000 On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:48:50 -0700 Devin Teske wrote: > Hello, > > I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. > > This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full > > > I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full > > The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): > > http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full > > > What does everybody think? IMO single user mode should be in the first level. I never had to use the other options, but I often used single-user mode. Another reson is that we tell to install the world in single-user mode. While I've always installed the world in multi-user mode, we should make it easy/fast to do it the recommended way. I see a lot of value for submenus to chose another boot device / partition, specially with ZFS boot environments. Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 17:04:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0E5106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:04:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A65D8FC1E; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id UAA15935; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:04:39 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TKuHP-0008NS-1i; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:04:39 +0300 Message-ID: <5071B625.6090906@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:04:37 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:04:42 -0000 on 07/10/2012 02:48 Devin Teske said the following: > Hello, > > I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. > > This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full > > > I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: > > http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full > > The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): > > http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full > in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full > > > What does everybody think? Can't say for everybody :-) I think that the infrastructure is great. How you chose to use it in your demo might turn off some people though :-) I mean hiding of the traditional options into the sub-menu. Let's use sub-menus for the really useful stuff. Like detailing safe boot options (e.g. under Troubleshooting sub-menu; ACPI can got there too) or offering a GUI way to chose a boot+root filesystem (esp. for ZFS). Please don't mind the people who react to screenshots rather than to your work (and thus, perhaps, can't see the wood behind the trees). Whatever you do, verbose boot and single-user mode must stay on the first page. At least until the next round of evolution. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 17:24:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06061065670 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:24:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com (mail-pa0-f54.google.com [209.85.220.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC878FC17 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:24:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id bi1so3672720pad.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:24:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=VtVWAYQPUkYFOz1W8388jCDLjj9BDhztEOkzXLHI7Pk=; b=chTAhAnwPdv81uX4iT6rnis9EyFtD7BgFo2JpxKDBhgPgE/Jblo+uAPRvliLWLQbQ+ hOZsq+YeUmDUfVAPdWJj5LOrNb4tRNfdzjTajunfS3YFAknZt0b6MFOUgM6cfKrmJMb1 aRFI9oukd13Rhhjes8wALni38rV4Ooww4oQKo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=VtVWAYQPUkYFOz1W8388jCDLjj9BDhztEOkzXLHI7Pk=; b=Txl6wjAMPKhrQC5IFph+PHGNrLvighJXLn5ALd4AsDV3rfC9f82SbhjyU3KgO8QAJj YkCW/xaFmOjVrJ7Wy/SirblqbzGOaoa3WJqaoOf5aMTCkc5hiOh1wJtDkn71c4C6UavB lIDNn/0E+4s6nQDntWNFULcLvhPFbVvXEp8GAoBYRZqhQewHmCS9TSg91W54CV2L3Gx3 +fiJPg38+9uIvb6QzLSAs+h3Mx/Eoop4ta2tOql/rOWvuawUjMBYhUM92SebaFrNrFCv S9PYuIKB+i46VU6c1U6ad0F9Dqd7pxVy6El52O/6q0A9yLfaHJ2/QDox7z9N7RZnTQ3L 3A+Q== Received: by 10.66.81.202 with SMTP id c10mr36933110pay.31.1349630694234; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:24:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.161.163 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 10:24:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5071B625.6090906@FreeBSD.org> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5071B625.6090906@FreeBSD.org> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:24:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQluabQEGP9ea2kSpkyH4E45OmupbhDxdehP4BapyxW9GUk1clZ+bIOnQFxakhvAdVrwfIh8 Cc: Devin Teske , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:24:55 -0000 On 7 October 2012 13:04, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 07/10/2012 02:48 Devin Teske said the following: >> Hello, >> >> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. >> >> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: >> >> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full >> >> >> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: >> >> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full >> >> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): >> >> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full >> >> >> What does everybody think? > > > Can't say for everybody :-) > I think that the infrastructure is great. How you chose to use it in your demo > might turn off some people though :-) I mean hiding of the traditional options > into the sub-menu. > > Let's use sub-menus for the really useful stuff. Like detailing safe boot > options (e.g. under Troubleshooting sub-menu; ACPI can got there too) or > offering a GUI way to chose a boot+root filesystem (esp. for ZFS). > > Please don't mind the people who react to screenshots rather than to your work > (and thus, perhaps, can't see the wood behind the trees). > > Whatever you do, verbose boot and single-user mode must stay on the first page. > At least until the next round of evolution. I completely agree with avg@ here. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 17:51:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6B11065787; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3678FC1B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:51:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa01.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97Hpdsb011521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:51:39 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:51:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 10:51:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:51:42 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:10 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Devin Teske writes: >> What does everybody think? >=20 > I think it's a terrible idea. >=20 > What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >=20 Many in-fact: 1. Growth issue. There's a ceiling to how many menu items a menu can have. + iX affiliates have come to me requesting accommodations for a submenu. + Adding said proposed submenu to the main menu (seen here: http://twitpic.= com/b1pkll/full) would leave practically no room for any further additions. 2. Exploring that last statement ("no room for any further additions")=85 + Practical and technical limitations prevent us from having more than 9 me= nu items. Coding around this is non-trivial (it goes all the way down to th= e raw ASCII codes that are generated when an associative keycode is pressed= ). + Due to the aforementioned technical/practical limitations, there's little= point in exploring the thought of: "what if we just got rid of Beastie to = make more room for the menu". Yielding more screen real estate for the menu= would not lift the technical limitations still limiting each menu from hav= ing at-maximum 9 items. 3. A bug is actually present in the current menu system. + Setting boot_verbose=3D"YES" in loader.conf(5) and rebooting, the current= menu system will not reflect this and the menu comes up saying "Verbose...= .. No". Although it is not and was not necessary to move the options to a s= ubmenu to fix this (in truth, the "dynamic menuitems" enhancement will fix = that and does not require the use of submenus), it was easier for *me* to t= est the dynamic menuitem initialization (aka constructor call-back) feature= enhancement if the option was in a submenu (since *re*-visiting a submenu = is akin to rebooting had I not moved the items off the main menu). + gnn was the one that reported this bug to me in early September. That was= a busy month because shortly thereafter, avg came at me with the request t= o accommodate submenus. I immediately recognized that these two requests (b= ugfix + enhancement) could be rolled into the same patchset (related featur= es). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 18:33:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090A3106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F7A8FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:33:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa07.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97IXFXh003800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:33:20 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:33:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:33:12 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <40D3D045-7B7F-41C4-BE8C-C44E60BA84B2@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> To: Garrett Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 18:33:22 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 8:53 AM, Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Devin Teske w= rote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. >>=20 >> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full >>=20 >> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full >>=20 >> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full >>=20 >> What does everybody think? >=20 > A few things: > 1. It makes things cleaner for humans who want to get essential tasks > done, My original thought was: *this* is going to finally allow us to accommodate= the additional menu items that iX is planning (like BE integration). But (similar to the "make things cleaner" thought), my second thought was: *this* is going to finally get those field engineers to stop asking me "sho= uld I change anything on this menu" and if it doesn't, at least now I can s= ay "don't change anything in the options *menu*" (more clear separation of = "action items" versus [possibly] vestigial protuberances that should be ign= ored by the casual observer). I think we often forget that *everybody* that boots FreeBSD (be it the "fie= ld engineer", the "programmer", the "sys admin", or even -- and this is the= kicker -- the "remote controlled non-techie sitting on the phone with a te= chie trying to help solve a problem only because he's the only warm body in= the remote site which unfortunately has lost access" person) see this menu= . It's that mindset that makes me think that "less is more" and "clear sepa= ration so we can say ``don't touch that menu'' versus ``don't touch those 4= items''" is a win, not a loss. > but it also makes it a little bit harder for automation to "dive > down" into the next level and test stuff (unless OFC the beastie menu > was completely bypassed, which might be something that I need to do in > the future for automation as the bootloader prompt never really > changes). Well, if you were automating things, I would hope that you were setting thi= ngs in loader.conf(5), not relying on a written procedure. That is to say that, setting boot_verbose=3D"YES" in loader.conf(5) is a be= tter way of automating verbose-booting opposed to requiring someone to hit = "v" before booting each time. The effect of these settings (in loader.conf(= 5)) is not proposed to change -- they would work the same regardless of whe= ther the menu item is in the main menu or a submenu. Last, but not least, the written procedure would only change slightly. If y= ou want to boot into single-user mode, for example, currently you'd press "= s" then "ENTER". With the menu item moved to a submenu, you'd instead press= "o" then "s" then ENTER. What's worth noting is that "ENTER" will work on = any menu or submenu to boot. There would be no need to go back to the main = menu to boot (you can boot directly from the options submenu). > 2. This makes it harder for people rolling custom patches on the > bootloader to continue using them, but I suppose porting is "all in a > day's work", right :)? How so? Isn't that true _anytime_ patches are made? Actually, I've made very little changes to everything that is currently the= re with the exception of the massive/new "menusets.4th" What's worth noting about these enhancements are they are only additive in = nature. No functionality was removed, only added _and_ existing menu.rc set= ups will continue to work. When I give my live demo this coming Thursday at BAFUG, I'll be demonstrati= ng how the existing menu.rc in HEAD can be used with zero changes to the Fo= rth code; then demonstrate 3 _new_ menu.rc files which successively demonst= rate more features with more complex setups (but again with zero changes to= the Forth code). This shows retention of backward compatibility. I'll remind the community that the major goal of these enhancements (starti= ng with the enhancements I made 16+ months ago) were to alleviate the need = to continually be changing the Forth code. That instead of always implement= ing new Forth code, that changes in functionality (even additions of new me= nus) could be done by merely setting a collection of precisely-named enviro= nment variables (which can be done in the POSIX C layer, a simple *.rc file= , or even loader.conf(5) -- but no Forth modifications). These enhancements= follow the same line of thinking and make it even more likely that (if peo= ple accept these patches into their own custom distributions down-stream fr= om FreeBSD) patches are less necessary. > 3. There isn't really a limit on how much the submenus could or should > grow; Right now, I've programmed in an upper limit of 65535 possible submenus. Ea= ch submenu can have up to 9 maximum (tho we like to keep it at 8 for multip= le reasons) menu items. Each of those menu items can be a static-type, togg= le type, cycle type, or submenu type (meaning there is a common infrastruct= ure for these types; you can do anything you want for a menu item by creati= ng any call-back you desire and said call-back can be provided either by th= e Forth layer or the POSIX C layer). > oh, and Forth can be a black art of sorts. >=20 Yes, it can. That's why I've been working hard on getting call-back systems= functioning properly so folks like avg and mav can have fully dynamic menu= s driven by C-based call-backs (with zero Forth work). > Even though I can see its merits, I do see where des@ is coming from. > It's good to see some discussion before commit, but I think it > deserves a bit more thought and some rough sketches to come up with a > solid (or at least squishy) plan on how to proceed. >=20 agreed. >> NOTE: This change is not trivial. It took me nearly a month of hacking t= o produce this _and_ almost 1,000 changed lines of code are required. Featu= res such as submenus, dynamic menus and menu items, and more were added and= I'm at a point where I can commit this back to the tree. I'm sure we want = these features, but we have a choice of keeping the menu as-is without any = changes _or_ we can choose to use the new features (as exhibited in this pr= oposal -- where the boot options are sidled-off into a submenu). >=20 > That might be harder to work with. sysinstall was usable to a point, > but then it got unusable after a period of time because of the way > libdialog was changed, and then unfortunately it was abandoned after a > while. We'd rather avoid those usability "mistakes" in the future if > at all possible. >=20 I think you misunderstand. When I say that we have a choice to not make any= changes, what I meant was that after all the enhancements are in, there's = nothing forcing us to use them. That everything is backward compatible and = that the existing menu.rc does not have to change (tho a quick note about t= hat below). Tho the infrastructure is not losing any functionality, we ought to at leas= t use the new "dynamic menuitem" constructors to fix a bug that currently p= lagues HEAD -- the fact that setting boot_verbose=3D"YES" (as just one exam= ple) in loader.conf(5) will not be reflected in the main boot menu. At the = very least, we should use the dynamic initialization feature to fix that bu= g even if we don't end up pushing the options to a submenu. > As always, as usable, simple, and maintainable as possible is what we > should shoot for in the project. if it makes sense, things maybe > should be split up into separate menus with a common boilerplate > *shrugs*. >=20 Usable, simple, maintainable _and_ easily extendable was what I was shootin= g for. I understand a lot of people don't hack on the Forth code -- I've be= en having fun and excitement with it for over 8 years, but alas I understan= d a lot of people aren't excited-by or have-fun with it. So I've tried to p= ush all the functionality into the other layers where people are adeptly sk= illed and there is no shortage of programmers (namely the C and config spac= es). Oh, and with respect to the "boilerplate" comment: that's actually possible= . Menus (or submenus) can be wholly static, wholly dynamic, or any percenta= ge thereof. In one demo I'll be giving this Thursday (BAFUG), the root-devi= ce selection menu has one static menu item and many dynamically-generated m= enu items. So this is something that is definitely do-able if we want. >> P.S. The hope is to one day utilize _all_ of the features I'm adding to = one day have something like this (a functioning mock-up, but unfinished cur= rently): http://twitter.com/devinteske/status/254419042104909824 >=20 > Hmmm=85 >=20 You'll have to talk to mav and jpaetzel about their plans for the "BE subme= nu" -- I hope to pick some brains this Thursday at BAFUG to see what it mig= ht look like, how it might function, etc. but right now I don't know how th= ey are going to use my new menuing infrastructure. What I posted was just a= mock-up of what I think might be useful (filtering on type and having a me= nu for setting vfs.root.mountfrom based on lsdev/lszfs output). --=20 Cheers, Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 18:44:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9370C10656C3; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:44:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4C58FC1A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:44:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa01.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97IiRIf007965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:44:27 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:44:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:44:25 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> To: Alexander Leidinger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 18:44:30 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 9:34 AM, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:48:50 -0700 Devin Teske > wrote: >=20 >> Hello, >>=20 >> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. >>=20 >> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full >>=20 >>=20 >> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full >>=20 >> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full >>=20 >>=20 >> What does everybody think? >=20 > IMO single user mode should be in the first level. I never had to use > the other options, but I often used single-user mode. Another reson is > that we tell to install the world in single-user mode. While I've > always installed the world in multi-user mode, we should make it > easy/fast to do it the recommended way. >=20 The documentation on how to get into single-user mode would need to be chan= ged from: Press 's' and 'ENTER' to instead: Press 'o' then 's' then 'ENTER' NOTE: The menu/submenu infrastructure hooks "ENTER" in at the lowest level = possible, so at any time=85 ENTER =3D=3D boot (regardless of whether a menu= or submenu has a "Boot" menu item and/or regardless of whether any menuite= m has hooked in the ASCII keycode for ENTER; ENTER =3D=3D boot no matter wh= ere you are in the menu at any time). Thus, it is not required to "go back"= to the main menu to boot -- you can jump to the options submenu, make your= changes, and then boot with those options by pressing ENTER. Please note that 16+ months ago we had to update the documentation for my l= ast enhancement to the loader menu. It used to be: Press 's' and changed to: Press 's' then 'ENTER' because we went from a stateless menu system to a stateful menu system. The= driving force behind that was indeed the fact that with the old stateless = menu, you could not ever boot with combinations-of-options (but rather you = could only boot with options that were presented -- unless of course you dr= opped to the interactive prompt and did the dirty work yourself). > I see a lot of value for submenus to chose another boot device / > partition, specially with ZFS boot environments. >=20 Agreed. But it's when we add that submenu to the main menu that things now get so c= rowded that a redesign would be absolutely necessary if we were to add any = other option. --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 18:52:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1441065672; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:52:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEECF8FC16; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:52:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828F66D04; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:51:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 17473843F; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:51:54 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:51:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> (Devin Teske's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2012 10:51:37 -0700") Message-ID: <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 18:52:02 -0000 Devin Teske writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? > Many in-fact: > [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually > in the email I replied to] Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 18:52:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DB91065670; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:52:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1CC8FC12; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:52:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97IqPHi030466 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:52:25 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:52:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <5071B625.6090906@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:52:23 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <8FC2C78A-5F4E-4F87-AC63-D1B554E13505@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5071B625.6090906@FreeBSD.org> To: Andriy Gapon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 18:52:27 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 10:04 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 07/10/2012 02:48 Devin Teske said the following: >> Hello, >>=20 >> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. >>=20 >> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full >>=20 >>=20 >> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full >>=20 >> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see below): >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full >>=20 >>=20 >> What does everybody think? >=20 >=20 > Can't say for everybody :-) > I think that the infrastructure is great. How you chose to use it in you= r demo > might turn off some people though :-) I mean hiding of the traditional o= ptions > into the sub-menu. >=20 That wasn't a demo, that's my honest-to-goodness proposed replacement for H= EAD. ^_^ > Let's use sub-menus for the really useful stuff. Like detailing safe boot > options (e.g. under Troubleshooting sub-menu; ACPI can got there too) or > offering a GUI way to chose a boot+root filesystem (esp. for ZFS). >=20 I'm here to provide the infrastructure. I'll admit that: + I'm not the one to decide how my infrastructure is best used. + we desperately need to discuss before making any changes. I just knew how to provide the necessary infrastructure in a way that: + didn't break backward compatibility for the old/current menu + could accommodate more functionality than was available + could accommodate the features iX approached me about* * such as BE menu (which I've not yet talked about to any great length YET,= so I am myself very short on details as I think we're still in the design = phase) > Please don't mind the people who react to screenshots rather than to your= work > (and thus, perhaps, can't see the wood behind the trees). >=20 True. Tho it may be nice to give those that don't know Forth a chance to pa= rticipate. > Whatever you do, verbose boot and single-user mode must stay on the first= page. > At least until the next round of evolution. >=20 I'm not committing to making any changes to the visible functionality at th= is time (beyond fixing the bug that gnn brought to my attention -- with res= pect to initial-state of things like boot_verbose from loader.conf(5) not b= eing adhered to). What's there will remain as-is until we come to an agreement on what to do. However, I will move forward with committing-back _all_ functionality enhan= cements (which will remain largely unused at this point until either iX com= es in with the BE menu code or we decide to shunt some-or-all of the ancill= ary boot options off to a submenu). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 19:03:56 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC223106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B041B8FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:03:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97J3sKu023922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:03:54 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:03:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:03:51 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:03:57 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Devin Teske writes: >> Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: >>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >> Many in-fact: >> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually >> in the email I replied to] >=20 I disagree with your slight that those "things =85 bear no relation whatsoe= ver to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are _very_ relate= d (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in my initial e-ma= il). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to rectify it below). > Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >=20 Yes, perhaps. Perhaps it would have been better to explain: Hey=85 + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include a new s= ubmenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the menu infras= tructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves into a po= sition where no more menuitems can be added. + This pigeon-hole has forced the hand of moving some-or-all of the boot op= tions into a submenu. + This is what it would look like. and _then_ ask: + What do you think of how it looks? --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 19:07:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9795106566B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AFD8FC12; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF7C6D19; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5647F8448; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:07:18 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:07:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Devin Teske's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:44:25 -0700") Message-ID: <867gr214pm.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Leidinger , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:07:19 -0000 Devin Teske writes: > The documentation on how to get into single-user mode would need to be ch= anged from: > > Press 's' and 'ENTER' > > to instead: > > Press 'o' then 's' then 'ENTER' or Press ESC then type "boot -s" then press ENTER, wait for the single-user mode prompt, then type: fsck -p && mount -a && echo 'beastie_disable=3D"YES"' >>/boot/loader.conf but that's just me... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 19:15:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0BA1065674; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9AC8FC19; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:15:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30BC6D33; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:15:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9F6B7844B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:15:12 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:15:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Devin Teske's message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:03:51 -0700") Message-ID: <86391q14cf.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:15:14 -0000 Devin Teske writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Devin Teske writes: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > > > What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? > > > Many in-fact: > > > [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually > > > in the email I replied to] > I disagree with your slight that those "things =E2=80=A6 bear no relation > whatsoever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". Your original email was a proposal to hide the boot options from the boot menu (which I loathe, but that's an argument for killing it, not for making it even more horrible), with a footnote saying that the patch was well over a thousand lines. If that's not what you meant, then that's not what you should have written. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 19:23:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C269C106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:23:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [69.147.83.54]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AE414DB87; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:23:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:23:33 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:15.0) Gecko/20121001 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:23:33 -0000 On 10/06/2012 16:48, Devin Teske wrote: > NOTE: This change is not trivial. It took me nearly a month of > hacking to produce this _and_ almost 1,000 changed lines of code are > required. It's generally a good idea to ask for feedback before spending this amount of time on something. Coming to the community and saying, "I spent so much time on this, you have to accept it" doesn't fly. "But that's not why I mentioned how many hours I spent." "So why mention it at all?" :) > Features such as submenus, dynamic menus and menu items, > and more were added and I'm at a point where I can commit this back > to the tree. I'm sure we want these features, but we have a choice of > keeping the menu as-is without any changes _or_ we can choose to use > the new features (as exhibited in this proposal -- where the boot > options are sidled-off into a submenu). Others have already brought up their favorite items to keep at the top level, I think it would be much simpler to leave everything that is at the top level now, and make submenus option number 8. Bonus points if you can make it easy to add a submenu via loader.conf. Regarding the UI on your submenu example; never, ever, ever use Backspace to mean anything other than "delete the character behind the cursor." Unfortunately you cannot use 'B' or Escape here either since they have meaning in the previous menu. 'Left Arrow' is likely the best choice, although Home or even 'Page Up' would be better than Backspace. hth, Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 19:52:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A4E106568B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:52:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com (mail-pa0-f54.google.com [209.85.220.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4E08FC0A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:52:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id bi1so3731761pad.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=8rU69dm+w8sxc9jCig2Wqw/rzZdh5U9LOFwO5BiMjck=; b=XClcv1IspBW6/IxZknkXPuED0nEPchNZPYZBD0TCiNG2QMNr4+HjAgkRKYrrg99Uae 6VGH9sAwhxVIBUdP1a6PyYMrmIToPxrrfmvDk/s+hAj1oVvaayjue8Z4OnOXM+ldEjoE 9pcCEKZDHXJbyakfLPGonWEUpuMCMLTJWLwPUomiSIc+5MXr4XDdn74LoOGokslAYIP4 mHWzKNL0XJVH6vIcTYeeW74O9G42ihZ37AhvjLDAWlFPlQ1ympJL+PTDENJfHRLustTL j1T+3NXTelXJV7E1ofv3LvS1Soipg0FayURzel2N85MzLjGaywPRaP5eM5KCo/n+4RlX 9wEw== Received: by 10.68.204.169 with SMTP id kz9mr47559688pbc.39.1349639532871; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vf8sm9497108pbc.27.2012.10.07.12.52.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:52:55 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: Devin Teske X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:52:15 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >=20 >> Devin Teske writes: >>> Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: >>>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >>> Many in-fact: >>> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was = actually >>> in the email I replied to] >>=20 >=20 > I disagree with your slight that those "things =85 bear no relation = whatsoever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". >=20 > It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are _very_ = related (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in my = initial e-mail). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to = rectify it below). >=20 >> Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >>=20 >=20 > Yes, perhaps. >=20 > Perhaps it would have been better to explain: >=20 > Hey=85 >=20 > + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include a = new submenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the = menu infrastructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. Sounds like GRUB/Plymouth's model... sorta. > + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves into = a position where no more menuitems can be added. Understood. ... > + What do you think of how it looks? Comments: - Graphics look ok for a text boot loader. Not too radically different = from the original rewrite, which is good. - Look at other OSes and devices for inspiration for their boot menus: = OSX and Windows might not be a good template because the menu is = obscured from the end user (or maybe not?), but there might be some = Android/Linux platforms out there that can serve as inspiration for = things which should be put in a menu. It would probably be best just to = come up with a general template based on common use cases. Once you have = an idea of the breadth of common uses in a boot menu, I would design = from there trying to determine what dimensions are that you need to make = things work (I have X items, Y levels deep to work with -- 2 is good, = and I can categorize them in this manner, which means I need this many = groups max in order to accommodate everything). - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some = already in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at = boot? I mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my = 30" or 24" LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind = before investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of = fruit. I'm sure others here agree. Thanks! -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:01:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91492106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:01:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FEA8FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:01:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p5DD45BA9.dip.t-dialin.net [93.212.91.169]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22468844006; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:01:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from unknown (IO.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.12]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A54941F2D; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:01:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1349640063; bh=tW4CK7zHSMcgvnZHSNjxhbaldpGiLNCb0y28DjAJuHs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=EY/o1NEjqlfcEnJLkg+OlO7O6O4Y2B6xuFkBEoCpx1Z2x+KzIZfqYLg3r3h1br2Hi Xglt0Pb8aXERzITOmRIwYE8Zt4LuqnegSktGYaSgK6fKmQn51M7lLZLke6i/UpzgDr YKd3RYe6qQCZVR3c2sparPtArrYnza5zX4mxZKinF3EgsxS+7W9keH/0vwYKoVvNOn X4J5794eqzEnsTs3UusRV89vZVkFy7a2SHsQcxLPysd7bH6TkPCaRYNYItmvrK0dCc Su2WKStTgMT3HiugvLjPSSYrENAkdikS5cbJMSvHOHjXMCMbERjL10oOCnv5uHYVK1 ehdfvzkPltlLw== Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:01:00 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Devin Teske Message-ID: <20121007220100.00002d21@unknown> In-Reply-To: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0cvs30 (GTK+ 2.24.10; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 22468844006.AF3AE X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.574, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL -0.46, DKIM_SIGNED 0.10, DKIM_VALID -0.10, DKIM_VALID_AU -0.10, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD -0.01) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1350244868.88508@I72YQrHxXawGnE4+FmDulQ X-EBL-Spam-Status: No Cc: devin.teske@fisglobal.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:01:13 -0000 On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:44:25 -0700 Devin Teske wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 9:34 AM, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:48:50 -0700 Devin Teske > > wrote: > > > >> Hello, > >> > >> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. > >> > >> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: > >> > >> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full > >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full > >> > >> > >> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: > >> > >> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full > >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full > >> > >> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see > >> below): > >> > >> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full > >> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full > >> > >> > >> What does everybody think? > > > > IMO single user mode should be in the first level. I never had to > > use the other options, but I often used single-user mode. Another > > reson is that we tell to install the world in single-user mode. > > While I've always installed the world in multi-user mode, we should > > make it easy/fast to do it the recommended way. > > > > The documentation on how to get into single-user mode would need to > be changed from: > > Press 's' and 'ENTER' > > to instead: > > Press 'o' then 's' then 'ENTER' > Please note that 16+ months ago we had to update the documentation > for my last enhancement to the loader menu. It used to be: > > Press 's' > > and changed to: > > Press 's' then 'ENTER' I failed to notice this, due to lack of need to go into single-user mode since then respectively lack of need to have a look at the boot menu when booting. Please see below for my opinion of this. > because we went from a stateless menu system to a stateful menu > system. The driving force behind that was indeed the fact that with > the old stateless menu, you could not ever boot with > combinations-of-options (but rather you could only boot with options > that were presented -- unless of course you dropped to the > interactive prompt and did the dirty work yourself). Let me rephrase my previous mail a little bit: Personally I agree that safe mode and ACPI can be moved to a submenu, but single-user mode does not belong into the same submenu. While technically they may be similar (setting some options in the loader which based upon this does something behind the scenes), conceptually they are not the same thing for an user, so from an usability point of view they do not belong into the same submenu. IMO single-user mode shouldn't be an option, but a top-level item like "boot". Conceptually it falls within boot and reboot in my point of view (similar would be "boot from network" in case we would add this possibility to the loader). It's not really a small modification of the boot like with safe mode and verbose booting, it's big change in the outcome of the operation. You told in another mail that there is a technical limitation to the number of items, so I assume your interest in moving out as much options as possible is based upon this. You've already made room by moving 3 items out to the submenu. It would be great if "boot single-user" would be along boot and reboot, the rest can be put into a submenu. Even if we are challenged in the future regarding space, we can always put "More" (or similar) as a 5th item and have all the submenus behind "More". I've also seen your mail where you tell to think about the situation where a poor victim is sitting in front of FreeBSD as a remote hand. Having a top-level entry for single-user mode there and all the rest somewhere else would help in this situation too. It's not uncommon to ask a remote hand to boot to single-user, and this would clash with your hint at putting those other options out of the mind of the poor victim. So basically I propose something like this: Main menu: 1. Boot 2. Escape 3. Reboot 4. Boot to single-user mode 5. Expert options (order and numbering doesn't matter, feel free to shuffle around at will) Expert menu: 1. Boot options (what you have in the current submenu except single-user) 2. Change Root FS / BE / kernel to boot / whatever you name it (order and numbering... shuffle around at will) The rationale of having different submenus for changing the root FS and the other boot options are twofold. The first one is a tribute to the poor victim which gives a helping hand, he will not see the boot options in case the request is made to change the root FS. The second one is that the boot options are modifying the behavior of a given kernel (verbose messages, safe mode, acpi), while the root-fs/BE/kernel item is choosing a different kernel to boot. I'm trying to improve the usability / understandability of the boot process from an user point of view. I've tried to forget the technical details and tried to focus on action items an user / minion would like to do. Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:01:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9759010656CE; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:01:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BEB8FC16; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:01:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id XAA16744; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 23:01:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TKx2U-0008ay-D3; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 23:01:26 +0300 Message-ID: <5071DF94.5010005@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 23:01:24 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Devin Teske , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:01:31 -0000 on 07/10/2012 22:23 Doug Barton said the following: > I think it would be much simpler to leave everything that is at > the top level now, and make submenus option number 8 I disagree about "everything". Safe Boot is open for changes. Because it's a big black box. ACPI option could go where the sub-options of Safe Mode go too. These two options are really troubleshooting options and are not interactively used once a system is installed and configured. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:27:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F2C106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77B68FC16; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:27:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97KRAP3026699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:27:10 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:27:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:27:08 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:27:12 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 10/06/2012 16:48, Devin Teske wrote: >=20 >> NOTE: This change is not trivial. It took me nearly a month of >> hacking to produce this _and_ almost 1,000 changed lines of code are >> required. >=20 > It's generally a good idea to ask for feedback before spending this > amount of time on something. I will agree that _generally_ it's a good idea, but in my case feedback mak= es no difference with respect to how much effort I put into something like = this. The reason being that these features, if not taken into FreeBSD, will simpl= y live on happily in DruidBSD. The boot loader menu that is currently used in FreeBSD HEAD, CURRENT, and R= ELENG_9 in-fact was used in DruidBSD for nearly 7 years before it was impor= ted to FreeBSD. > Coming to the community and saying, "I > spent so much time on this, you have to accept it" doesn't fly. >=20 I reject your proposed hypothesis that this was my intent (the proper inten= t is described below). > "But that's not why I mentioned how many hours I spent." > "So why mention it at all?" :) >=20 My precise intent for mentioning this was for the other Forth and/or boot-m= enu folks (not the casual person). I didn't want the other Forth hackers to get excited and perhaps form the m= arkedly false impressions that either: a. the current code allows for submenus b. that submenus were easy to add c. that shoving the boot options into a submenu is something that can be do= ne with a "1 line commit" Rather, I sought to set the stage that if the proposed "end result" is desi= rable, it would give me impetus to continue working in that direction (whic= h is a tiny fork in the end of a long road of committing ~1000 lines of req= uisite enhancements). By providing the information I did at the end, I was not stating "I worked = hard on this, you must accept it," but rather I was stating "here's somethi= ng nice, if you want it I'm prepared to make it happen and this is what you= can expect to be committed as-described by said effort." I did not perceive that anybody would construe my statement-of-effort as an= ything other than being totally up-front about what went into the final pro= posed-product versus trying to be sneaky and pull a "bait and switch" (some= thing I definitely would have perceived if somebody _didn't_ itemize the ef= fort that went into something that *looked* simple or *sounded* easy). >> Features such as submenus, dynamic menus and menu items, >> and more were added and I'm at a point where I can commit this back >> to the tree. I'm sure we want these features, but we have a choice of >> keeping the menu as-is without any changes _or_ we can choose to use >> the new features (as exhibited in this proposal -- where the boot >> options are sidled-off into a submenu). >=20 > Others have already brought up their favorite items to keep at the top > level, I think it would be much simpler to leave everything that is at > the top level now, and make submenus option number 8. What name would you give this "all submenus" menu item? Because, as previou= sly discussed, if the menu stays as-is, we can really only have one more it= em and so said-new-item would have to be an "all submenus" option. Somehow,= I don't think jpaetzel, avg, and mav are going to like this as a solution = for their proposed-new "BE menu" (having "8. Submenus" -> "2. BE Submenu" -= > "Select a BE" just seems too deep-a-traversal). > Bonus points if > you can make it easy to add a submenu via loader.conf. >=20 Done. There's zero difference in configuring menus in a "menu.rc" file than= in "loader.conf" file. Menus (and submenus alike) are configured via appropriately named environme= nt variables. How these environment variables get set is entirely up to the= clients of my framework. You can set them via menu.rc, loader.conf, in the= C layer (e.g., sys/boot/ficl/loader.c), or the Forth layer. It makes no di= fference. However, I implore everybody to stay away from the Forth layer be= cause adding massive amounts of static text to that layer can *quickly* cau= se dictionary overflow which leads to immediate and fatal BTX halt. Setting= the environment variables in menu.rc, loader.conf, or the C layer doesn't = suffer from the limitations of the FICL dictionary size (and bumping the di= ctionary size is not always the right solution). > Regarding the UI on your submenu example; never, ever, ever use > Backspace to mean anything other than "delete the character behind the > cursor." Seriously? Who made _that_ rule? and moreover, _WHY_? My reasoning=85 you want to be able to account for non-responsive systems i= n which case the user jams on a given key because they don't get a screen-u= pdate right-away. In this case, what's the harm in jamming on Backspace? Ev= en if they somehow drop to an interactive prompt and are still jamming Back= space, what's the harm? I don't understand this out-of-the-blue axiom. Can you or someone explain its origins and or enlighten me to the edge-case= that led to its creation? I'l in-turn become one a staunch follower, I jus= t want to know the pathos behind it. > Unfortunately you cannot use 'B' or Escape here either since > they have meaning in the previous menu. Right-o > 'Left Arrow' is likely the best > choice, although Home or even 'Page Up' would be better than Backspace. >=20 Hmmm, I find myself wishing that there could be multiple keycodes associate= d with a given menuitem, but at this time there's really only one keycode t= hat can be set (without further enhancement). I'll try playing around, but I'm afraid that backspace just felt so "right"= that my hands won't want to do anything else. I can tell you from playing around with submenus for quite awhile, that it'= s sometimes annoying (until you get the repetition down) having to hunt for= the key to "take me back" (and backspace just seemed "right" as the key to= "take me back" no matter where I am). It also seemed to play well because = I was logically perceiving a traversal to the right into the submenu, and (= perhaps this is strictly because I am a native English speaker that types l= eft-to-right), backspace was the logical correct thing to take me back "to = the left" just as it does when typing. --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:34:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE3210656C7; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:34:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885298FC14; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:34:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id rp8so3817544pbb.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=DIrROcnI5P7diiORGOOmdWOQvKAfwJ0mV4loCx5qavw=; b=Z8zeHIy9iJbUPI01ywYiELtXkl27Q6b+UMQ1sk+tpwjJOZGYfp1PHgTny4eq8D7yTe x63+b94VJrp6Q66i1xevICbB4G2N+a+ILQn5rBnOqkgPulwT767W9oRmGLP5Kxwvw1xN c09+bti0eEjPzjz6M8xD6szXhgWdf75eoA+YOE2IIsykWVz0q5yu15Q6kHfKfSvjD52R BraNpXFV/PezdcIefyDyyh7VjRg6TY+iIiTdg2NXDd7hOS4RLuddhxNuKd9RMTVdEwHn ws2MHqchjE3wiaP0c7zNL3twA4XPDsuFeUr6xRyJQH69dYju43uctmnLcanj8kqx6hGW YWZg== Received: by 10.68.227.162 with SMTP id sb2mr48641022pbc.4.1349642058193; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c1sm9646211pay.19.2012.10.07.13.34.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <5071DF94.5010005@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:35:02 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5071D6B5.1010609@FreeBSD.org> <5071DF94.5010005@FreeBSD.org> To: Andriy Gapon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: Devin Teske , Doug Barton , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:34:19 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:01 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 07/10/2012 22:23 Doug Barton said the following: >> I think it would be much simpler to leave everything that is at >> the top level now, and make submenus option number 8 >=20 > I disagree about "everything". Safe Boot is open for changes. = Because it's a > big black box. ACPI option could go where the sub-options of Safe = Mode go too. > These two options are really troubleshooting options and are not = interactively > used once a system is installed and configured. Windows featured multiple "Safe Boot" modes, one which contained = interactive prompts for enabling functionality. Maybe that would be a = good idea for newbs who need a Safe Mode walkthrough? Lol. -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:36:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48CC10656C5; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:36:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732F88FC20; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:36:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.17]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97KabvP027635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:36:37 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:36:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: Garrett Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:36:40 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >=20 >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>=20 >>> Devin Teske writes: >>>> Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: >>>>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >>>> Many in-fact: >>>> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually >>>> in the email I replied to] >>>=20 >>=20 >> I disagree with your slight that those "things =85 bear no relation what= soever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". >>=20 >> It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are _very_ rel= ated (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in my initial e= -mail). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to rectify it belo= w). >>=20 >>> Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Yes, perhaps. >>=20 >> Perhaps it would have been better to explain: >>=20 >> Hey=85 >>=20 >> + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include a ne= w submenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the menu inf= rastructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. >=20 > Sounds like GRUB/Plymouth's model... sorta. >=20 >> + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves into a= position where no more menuitems can be added. >=20 > Understood. >=20 > ... > - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some alrea= dy in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at boot? I= mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my 30" or 24" = LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. >=20 Adding screen real-estate won't help. Menus (and any of the maximum 65535 s= ubmenus) are always limited to 9 maximum menu items. A significant overhaul of the Forth code would be required to accommodate m= ore than 9 menu items per-menu. Currently, if a 10th menuitem were rendered (assuming I lifted the boundary= -checks), it would be rendered as such: =85 8. Eighth Item 9. Ninth Item 1. Tenth item =85 Worse, you press "8" to invoke the 8th item, "9" to invoke the 9th item, bu= t ":" to invoke the 10th item (wait, what?) Yes, ":" to invoke the 10th item. Because currently ASCII keycodes are used= to associate menu items. The next character after "9" is ":". > I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind befor= e investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of fruit. = I'm sure others here agree. >=20 Sorry, but I'm the infrastructure guy. I provide the framework. I'll leave = it to the community to decide how to use that framework. I'm leaving it in = jpaetzel's, avg's, and mav's very capable hands to utilize my framework in = whatever way they see fit. They came to me with a need. I filled that need. If the community doesn't w= ant it, I'll just dump it into DruidBSD and use it there until someone want= s it. --=20 DevinDe _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:48:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A90106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:48:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E583F8FC0A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:48:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-50-143-149-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.143.149.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q97Kmpmp091400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:48:50 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garrett Cooper References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: =?windows-1252?Q?rgrav?= , =?windows-1252?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8?=, Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:48:55 -0000 On 10/7/12 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: > I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind before investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of fruit. I'm sure others here agree. It'd be interesting to see if we could get a boot loader that has an option to boot a backup image, or maybe off network.. I know that by the time we got this far we are supposed to be beyond that, but who knows what is actually possible. I'd love to see a picoBSD image available for booting in emergencies. Whether in it's own partition, or just a file in the root partition (or wherever) that can be loaded as a root filesystem. having the ability to recover from really bad screwups is why you need the menus in the first place usually. not sure what is really possible. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:49:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4879B1065687; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:49:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE0E8FC12; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:49:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id rp8so3823044pbb.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=krORJAlJvVYIxvy0l2cZ/t4z/GXf7pP7PuqkNDifWaY=; b=J927MNEPZlSyKwdRt5nhZNyWk680kmtCNnwQmohKidzoRQT/nYZKxThuzp3Uc1QLrE EOEHlkNfUWXRYeR2Zs1uWaLsInMsUQzvdDtnvzugHOozEZtNzVW9VX+Ret7fA6OnARj8 cJBLs1CIaACjwwtKcEwmJVZ7AuCja0WXwNgNxxr7Qm+fS7gbvRzlMMtm/vOLf3rDA+Po o3WztUI8ykV1HbI0/5KM1EwEHBoLbqOs1kbfCL7EG83hji1EVV8JpQmEf4RPGUnof13Q lpn1HIq3ya0ebkUPEB8PQvW8DdtETGET07FfVPufaG+xoGk1Td2OszX2nmwsEB3hRO7V dUgA== Received: by 10.68.132.40 with SMTP id or8mr32610221pbb.63.1349642968079; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vi9sm9545853pbc.41.2012.10.07.13.49.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:50:12 -0700 Message-Id: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> To: Devin Teske X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:49:30 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:36 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >=20 >> - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some = already in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at = boot? I mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my = 30" or 24" LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. >=20 > Adding screen real-estate won't help. Menus (and any of the maximum = 65535 submenus) are always limited to 9 maximum menu items. >=20 > A significant overhaul of the Forth code would be required to = accommodate more than 9 menu items per-menu. >=20 > Currently, if a 10th menuitem were rendered (assuming I lifted the = boundary-checks), it would be rendered as such: >=20 > =85 > 8. Eighth Item > 9. Ninth Item > 1. Tenth item > =85 >=20 > Worse, you press "8" to invoke the 8th item, "9" to invoke the 9th = item, but ":" to invoke the 10th item (wait, what?) >=20 > Yes, ":" to invoke the 10th item. Because currently ASCII keycodes are = used to associate menu items. The next character after "9" is ":". :(=85 Understood. >> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind = before investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of = fruit. I'm sure others here agree. >=20 > Sorry, but I'm the infrastructure guy. I provide the framework. I'll = leave it to the community to decide how to use that framework. I'm = leaving it in jpaetzel's, avg's, and mav's very capable hands to utilize = my framework in whatever way they see fit. >=20 > They came to me with a need. I filled that need. If the community = doesn't want it, I'll just dump it into DruidBSD and use it there until = someone wants it. Ok. I wasn't aware of the language constraints with Forth (I've dabbled = very briefly in it, but I am by no means even a novice), and now I = better understand some of the issues you're facing. Thanks for the explanation! I'll try to be more less critical next time. -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:49:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54F4106566B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB20A8FC0A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:49:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-50-143-149-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.143.149.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q97Knl2v091409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <5071EAEB.9090509@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:49:47 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> In-Reply-To: <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Garrett Cooper , =?windows-1252?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:49:55 -0000 On 10/7/12 1:36 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: > > > >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >> >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >>> >>>> Devin Teske writes: >>>>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: >>>>>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >>>>> Many in-fact: >>>>> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually >>>>> in the email I replied to] >>> I disagree with your slight that those "things … bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". >>> >>> It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are _very_ related (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in my initial e-mail). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to rectify it below). >>> >>>> Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >>>> >>> Yes, perhaps. >>> >>> Perhaps it would have been better to explain: >>> >>> Hey… >>> >>> + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include a new submenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the menu infrastructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. >> Sounds like GRUB/Plymouth's model... sorta. >> >>> + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves into a position where no more menuitems can be added. >> Understood. >> >> ... >> - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some already in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at boot? I mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my 30" or 24" LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. >> > Adding screen real-estate won't help. Menus (and any of the maximum 65535 submenus) are always limited to 9 maximum menu items. > > A significant overhaul of the Forth code would be required to accommodate more than 9 menu items per-menu. > > Currently, if a 10th menuitem were rendered (assuming I lifted the boundary-checks), it would be rendered as such: > > … > 8. Eighth Item > 9. Ninth Item > 1. Tenth item A,B,C,D..... Z? > … > > Worse, you press "8" to invoke the 8th item, "9" to invoke the 9th item, but ":" to invoke the 10th item (wait, what?) > > Yes, ":" to invoke the 10th item. Because currently ASCII keycodes are used to associate menu items. The next character after "9" is ":". > > > >> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind before investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of fruit. I'm sure others here agree. >> > Sorry, but I'm the infrastructure guy. I provide the framework. I'll leave it to the community to decide how to use that framework. I'm leaving it in jpaetzel's, avg's, and mav's very capable hands to utilize my framework in whatever way they see fit. > > They came to me with a need. I filled that need. If the community doesn't want it, I'll just dump it into DruidBSD and use it there until someone wants it. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 20:58:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F915106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8518FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id rp8so3826307pbb.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:58:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=e/gVUY3H3sR6MxQ0U6t7QM3IUIbNLFJbjS1g2poymVg=; b=K7z+5CmXZIHkIzX3r+3cFNeG0KQChWBuORiJw+fIhD/ZwWVvOMaXXeYDuo6cWecrv4 Epwao474/6J7ryvQq0SB5hSVXafu+o3oZcOBF9LK1R5369h2gIVuN2AR5sT2/ShPLdHd EoMiEJn4Kh8UFuFPkV6dvq0aGWZdZKbKEErsxYVX4wZeH9mw4axtcxElDajBHzdxOGGz JQQzpO0G2Wa2sa1Avur9PJDmXsqyxdyfhh6uIwAcJbWOElOvEhHmMvgKskXK6sos2fGO PFEDmuxoRVqybmHamIJBqoEE/DAYb1U1fDKIQBUrcwOhYLWzE5ZwkEbBwVhQw0DSVkSf VZ6g== Received: by 10.68.201.104 with SMTP id jz8mr48456184pbc.141.1349643532869; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gg6sm3266906pbc.38.2012.10.07.13.58.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <5071EAEB.9090509@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:59:36 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <981AFB75-8A23-4CB1-906B-7E61D76A150B@gmail.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> <5071EAEB.9090509@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:58:53 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 10/7/12 1:36 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>=20 >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Devin Teske writes: >>>>>> Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: >>>>>>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >>>>>> Many in-fact: >>>>>> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was = actually >>>>>> in the email I replied to] >>>> I disagree with your slight that those "things =85 bear no relation = whatsoever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". >>>>=20 >>>> It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are = _very_ related (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in = my initial e-mail). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to = rectify it below). >>>>=20 >>>>> Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >>>>>=20 >>>> Yes, perhaps. >>>>=20 >>>> Perhaps it would have been better to explain: >>>>=20 >>>> Hey=85 >>>>=20 >>>> + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include = a new submenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the = menu infrastructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. >>> Sounds like GRUB/Plymouth's model... sorta. >>>=20 >>>> + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves = into a position where no more menuitems can be added. >>> Understood. >>>=20 >>> ... >>> - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some = already in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at = boot? I mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my = 30" or 24" LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. >>>=20 >> Adding screen real-estate won't help. Menus (and any of the maximum = 65535 submenus) are always limited to 9 maximum menu items. >>=20 >> A significant overhaul of the Forth code would be required to = accommodate more than 9 menu items per-menu. >>=20 >> Currently, if a 10th menuitem were rendered (assuming I lifted the = boundary-checks), it would be rendered as such: >>=20 >> =85 >> 8. Eighth Item >> 9. Ninth Item >> 1. Tenth item >=20 > A,B,C,D..... Z? My mom would be confused with a user interface like that, but it would = sure be funny to watch :) (makes me feel like Sesame Street). -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 21:10:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033BD106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:10:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51B98FC12; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:10:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97LAXfx010998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:10:33 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:10:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:10:29 -0700 Message-ID: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Garrett Cooper , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:10:36 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:48 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 10/7/12 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind befo= re investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of fruit.= I'm sure others here agree. > It'd be interesting to see if we could get a boot loader that has an opti= on to boot a backup > image, or maybe off network.. I know that by the time we got this far we = are supposed to be > beyond that, but who knows what is actually possible. >=20 > I'd love to see a picoBSD image available for booting in emergencies. Whe= ther in it's own partition, > or just a file in the root partition (or wherever) that can be loaded as = a root filesystem. > having the ability to recover from really bad screwups is why you need th= e menus in the first place usually. >=20 > not sure what is really possible. >=20 *huge smiles* Have you been talking to old VICORians about what I've been working on here= ? haha It's like you stole a page out of my playbook. I've been working on this for years (slowly making the infrastructure chang= es in DruidBSD to accommodate this, and slowly trying to work that code bac= k into FreeBSD). NOTE: DruidBSD at it's core (when it's not being re-purposed as a multi-med= ia FreeBSD universal installation platform) is actually smaller than PicoBS= D. In the past month, I used DruidBSD maybe 5-dozen times to rescue an unboota= ble system. Which system? the system I was developing the boot loader on (h= aha). Everytime I would make a mistake (and subsequently end up in BTX halt, pani= c free guard1, or other fatal condition), I simply reboot, boot DruidBSD, a= nd within 3 keystrokes I have my system mounted read-write with all the too= ls I need to fix it. In less than 20 seconds, I've often corrected my mista= ke and have a working system again. NOTE: You can try it out yourself. I made publicly-available the latest ver= sion recently as part-of the FreeBSD-9.0_Druid-1.0b57.iso up on druidbsd.sf= .net (boot the ISO, select "freebsd", then select "Interactive Disk Repair = Shell" and answer guided questions to create a working environment copaceti= c to fixing even the worst situations). It even has a mode where it will st= art SSHD from the boot media so that *someone-ELSE* can log in remotely and= fix your non-bootable system (which we've had to use before -- it's a real= life-saver when someone in Manila for example has no FreeBSD knowledge but= can at least boot a system with a CD and answer some basic questions). Here's a screenshot that shows that DruidBSD has had the ability to swap ou= t the root filesystem image with a "rescue image" for nearly a decade (this= one screenshot taken 3 years ago): http://twitpic.com/16spp2 --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 21:13:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A421065673; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:13:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95A88FC16; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:13:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.31]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97LDFds004103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:13:15 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:13:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <5071EAEB.9090509@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:13:11 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <48E00D6E-B024-4130-92BA-70ECF1E88480@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <0CB9F1EA-2176-4AE9-B899-6E8744D06DC7@fisglobal.com> <5071EAEB.9090509@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Garrett Cooper , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:13:18 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 10/7/12 1:36 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Devin Teske writes: >>>>>> Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: >>>>>>> What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? >>>>>> Many in-fact: >>>>>> [list of things that bear no relation whatsoever to what was actually >>>>>> in the email I replied to] >>>> I disagree with your slight that those "things =85 bear no relation wh= atsoever to what was actually in the e-mail [you] replied to". >>>>=20 >>>> It only *seem* as those are unrelated. I assure you, they are _very_ r= elated (and it's very much my mistake for not making it clear in my initial= e-mail). I must apologize for this lack of clarity (I try to rectify it be= low). >>>>=20 >>>>> Then maybe you should have focused on that in your original email. >>>>>=20 >>>> Yes, perhaps. >>>>=20 >>>> Perhaps it would have been better to explain: >>>>=20 >>>> Hey=85 >>>>=20 >>>> + iX and I are working on enhancing the boot loader menu to include a = new submenu for selecting a Boot Environment (BE). I'm providing the menu i= nfrastructure, iX is providing the C code to populate that menu. >>> Sounds like GRUB/Plymouth's model... sorta. >>>=20 >>>> + We can't add this new menu item without pigeon-holing ourselves into= a position where no more menuitems can be added. >>> Understood. >>>=20 >>> ... >>> - Have you considered high resolution screens/fonts; there are some alr= eady in FreeBSD hooked into syscons, but that's available later on at boot?= I mention this because there's a lot of wasted real estate on my 30" or 24= " LCDs when I boot up FreeBSD. >>>=20 >> Adding screen real-estate won't help. Menus (and any of the maximum 6553= 5 submenus) are always limited to 9 maximum menu items. >>=20 >> A significant overhaul of the Forth code would be required to accommodat= e more than 9 menu items per-menu. >>=20 >> Currently, if a 10th menuitem were rendered (assuming I lifted the bound= ary-checks), it would be rendered as such: >>=20 >> =85 >> 8. Eighth Item >> 9. Ninth Item >> 1. Tenth item >=20 > A,B,C,D..... Z? >=20 I wasn't implying that this wasn't possible, just that it's not designed th= is way currently. It would be a significant overhaul to support this (_and_ we'd then have to= scramble for screen real-estate to support up to 35 menu items -- or perha= ps more generically support scrolling menus -- though I'm sure that can't b= e pleasing for the serial console folks to hear). --=20 Devin >> =85 >>=20 >> Worse, you press "8" to invoke the 8th item, "9" to invoke the 9th item,= but ":" to invoke the 10th item (wait, what?) >>=20 >> Yes, ":" to invoke the 10th item. Because currently ASCII keycodes are u= sed to associate menu items. The next character after "9" is ":". >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind bef= ore investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of fruit= . I'm sure others here agree. >>>=20 >> Sorry, but I'm the infrastructure guy. I provide the framework. I'll lea= ve it to the community to decide how to use that framework. I'm leaving it = in jpaetzel's, avg's, and mav's very capable hands to utilize my framework = in whatever way they see fit. >>=20 >> They came to me with a need. I filled that need. If the community doesn'= t want it, I'll just dump it into DruidBSD and use it there until someone w= ants it. >=20 _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 21:58:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002AC1065675; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:58:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66AE8FC1A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:58:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.31]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97LwnLY003339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:58:49 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:58:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <20121007220100.00002d21@unknown> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:58:46 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <20121007183433.000026a6@unknown> <20121007220100.00002d21@unknown> To: Alexander Leidinger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:58:50 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:01 PM, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 11:44:25 -0700 Devin Teske > wrote: >=20 >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 9:34 AM, Alexander Leidinger wrote: >>=20 >>> On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:48:50 -0700 Devin Teske >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hello, >>>>=20 >>>> I've been working on a new boot loader menu system. >>>>=20 >>>> This is what is in HEAD, CURRENT, and RELENG_9 at the moment: >>>>=20 >>>> http://twitpic.com/b1pkll/full >>>> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pkz1/full >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I'd like to propose the following replacement to the above: >>>>=20 >>>> http://twitpic.com/b1pll5/full >>>> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1plxi/full >>>>=20 >>>> The boot options have been whisked away into a sub-menu (see >>>> below): >>>>=20 >>>> http://twitpic.com/b1pm51/full >>>> in color: http://twitpic.com/b1pme8/full >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> What does everybody think? >>>=20 >>> IMO single user mode should be in the first level. I never had to >>> use the other options, but I often used single-user mode. Another >>> reson is that we tell to install the world in single-user mode. >>> While I've always installed the world in multi-user mode, we should >>> make it easy/fast to do it the recommended way. >>>=20 >>=20 >> The documentation on how to get into single-user mode would need to >> be changed from: >>=20 >> Press 's' and 'ENTER' >>=20 >> to instead: >>=20 >> Press 'o' then 's' then 'ENTER' >=20 >> Please note that 16+ months ago we had to update the documentation >> for my last enhancement to the loader menu. It used to be: >>=20 >> Press 's' >>=20 >> and changed to: >>=20 >> Press 's' then 'ENTER' >=20 > I failed to notice this, due to lack of need to go into single-user > mode since then respectively lack of need to have a look at the boot > menu when booting. Please see below for my opinion of this. >=20 >> because we went from a stateless menu system to a stateful menu >> system. The driving force behind that was indeed the fact that with >> the old stateless menu, you could not ever boot with >> combinations-of-options (but rather you could only boot with options >> that were presented -- unless of course you dropped to the >> interactive prompt and did the dirty work yourself). >=20 > Let me rephrase my previous mail a little bit: >=20 > Personally I agree that safe mode and ACPI can be moved to a submenu, > but single-user mode does not belong into the same submenu. >=20 > While technically they may be similar (setting some options in the > loader which based upon this does something behind the scenes), > conceptually they are not the same thing for an user, so from an > usability point of view they do not belong into the same submenu. >=20 How right you are. > IMO single-user mode shouldn't be an option, but a top-level item like > "boot". Conceptually it falls within boot and reboot in my point of > view (similar would be "boot from network" in case we would add this > possibility to the loader). It's not really a small modification of the > boot like with safe mode and verbose booting, it's big change in the > outcome of the operation. >=20 You really hit it home with this one, I believe. > You told in another mail that there is a technical limitation to the > number of items, so I assume your interest in moving out as much > options as possible is based upon this. You've already made room by > moving 3 items out to the submenu. It would be great if "boot > single-user" would be along boot and reboot, the rest can be put into a > submenu. Even if we are challenged in the future regarding space, we > can always put "More" (or similar) as a 5th item and have all the > submenus behind "More". >=20 Absolutely! Talking further about the "More" concept, I used to lie awake at night wond= ering, "what if there are more than a handful of devices to display in a me= nu w/respect to the ``select root device'' proposition". I came to the same= conclusion=85 the last menu item is a "more" (after all, the latest enhanc= ement brings in support for 65535 submenus, which ought to be enough "more"= functionality to enumerate all devices in even the beefiest of systems). Hanging the same logic onto the "Options" and/or "Expert Options" functiona= lity is downright logical. I like it. > I've also seen your mail where you tell to think about the situation > where a poor victim is sitting in front of FreeBSD as a remote hand. > Having a top-level entry for single-user mode there and all the rest > somewhere else would help in this situation too. It's not uncommon to > ask a remote hand to boot to single-user, and this would clash with > your hint at putting those other options out of the mind of the poor > victim. >=20 You make a great point. In that spirit, I do very much like the idea of hav= ing "Boot Single =85" in the "actions" section atop the main menu. > So basically I propose something like this: >=20 > Main menu: > 1. Boot > 2. Escape > 3. Reboot > 4. Boot to single-user mode > 5. Expert options > (order and numbering doesn't matter, feel free to shuffle around at > will) I like the ordering. I also like the fact that you took care to handle the edge-case that they "= meant to hit #1 but hit #2 by accident". If the single-user mode option was= #2, they'd end up at a SUM prompt (and if they are unaware that they hit #= 2 by accident, they _may_ think their FreeBSD is b0rk3d). Opposed to the ab= ove ordering, if they hit #2 by accident when they meant to hit #1, no harm= (they're given a message stating "type menu and hit ENTER to get back to t= he menu" before being dumped to the interactive loader prompt). The ordering is good. I feel it. >=20 > Expert menu: > 1. Boot options (what you have in the current submenu except > single-user) > 2. Change Root FS / BE / kernel to boot / whatever you name it > (order and numbering... shuffle around at will) >=20 > The rationale of having different submenus for changing the root FS and > the other boot options are twofold. I wholly agree. > The first one is a tribute to the > poor victim which gives a helping hand, he will not see the boot > options in case the request is made to change the root FS. The second > one is that the boot options are modifying the behavior of a given > kernel (verbose messages, safe mode, acpi), while the root-fs/BE/kernel > item is choosing a different kernel to boot. >=20 I wholly agree with the separation into 2 submenus and _why_, however... Let's be careful here. Be careful to not include "kernel" in that mix. In reality, the kernel is loaded by the "start" FICL word provided by loade= r.4th and this is done: a. before the menu is loaded and b. irrespective of the menu (done regardless of whether the menu is enabled= or not, perhaps via setting beastie_disable=3DYES in loader.conf(5)) So by the time the menu is invoked, the only way to change the kernel is to= "unload" and subsequently load the new kernel. It should be noted that DruidBSD does not load a kernel before the menu. Th= us in DruidBSD, we _do_ have a kernel selection menu (the overloaded "boot"= FICL word in DruidBSD is coded to load $kernel right before doing the real= boot whereas FreeBSD's overloaded "boot" FICL word simply invokes the alre= ady-loaded kernel that was loaded before the menu ever started). Many people over the years (in passing) have asked me about whether FreeBSD= could support a kernel selection menu to allow easily running (say, for ex= ample) "kernel.old". I don't always answer with the full breadth of this th= read, but the answer is always "sure, that's very do-able" when in reality = (as I state here and now in this thread) the fundamental fact that FreeBSD = always loads $kernel (as configured in loader.conf(5)) prior to starting th= e menu has to change before this can become a possibility. It's perhaps good that we're having this discussion out in the open now, be= cause I actually (as of yet) do not know if jpaetzel, avg, mav and iX compa= ny have plans to (attempt) to allow kernel swapping in the loader menu. If = that is the case, we'll have to broach the topic of changing that functiona= lity to match what DruidBSD does (defers kernel loading until "boot" is inv= oked). > I'm trying to improve the usability / understandability of the boot > process from an user point of view. Awesome! Something I agree is worthwhile. > I've tried to forget the technical > details and tried to focus on action items an user / minion would like > to do. >=20 Thank you! I think we'll all benefit from this endeavor of discussing these= enhancements in such a clear state. --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 22:33:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6508106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CA68FC0A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from JRE-MBP-2.local (c-50-143-149-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.143.149.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q97MXVA3093647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <5072033A.4090308@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:33:30 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Teske References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Garrett Cooper , =?windows-1252?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:33:42 -0000 On 10/7/12 2:10 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > > On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:48 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > >> On 10/7/12 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in >>> mind before investing too much time in a direction that doesn't >>> bear a lot of fruit. I'm sure others here agree. >> It'd be interesting to see if we could get a boot loader that has >> an option to boot a backup >> image, or maybe off network.. I know that by the time we got this >> far we are supposed to be >> beyond that, but who knows what is actually possible. >> >> I'd love to see a picoBSD image available for booting in >> emergencies. Whether in it's own partition, >> or just a file in the root partition (or wherever) that can be >> loaded as a root filesystem. >> having the ability to recover from really bad screwups is why you >> need the menus in the first place usually. >> >> not sure what is really possible. >> > > *huge smiles* > > Have you been talking to old VICORians about what I've been working > on here? haha > > It's like you stole a page out of my playbook. > > I've been working on this for years (slowly making the > infrastructure changes in DruidBSD to accommodate this, and slowly > trying to work that code back into FreeBSD). > > NOTE: DruidBSD at it's core (when it's not being re-purposed as a > multi-media FreeBSD universal installation platform) is actually > smaller than PicoBSD. Pico, or Nano? I know that Pico no longer fits on a single floppy but it's still pretty damned small. > > In the past month, I used DruidBSD maybe 5-dozen times to rescue an > unbootable system. Which system? the system I was developing the > boot loader on (haha). so, the question is, were does the boot come from and where does it load the image from? usb-key? > > Everytime I would make a mistake (and subsequently end up in BTX > halt, panic free guard1, or other fatal condition), I simply reboot, > boot DruidBSD, and within 3 keystrokes I have my system mounted > read-write with all the tools I need to fix it. In less than 20 > seconds, I've often corrected my mistake and have a working system > again. to some extent I'd like to see some recoverability like this for default freeBSD. even the old "create a bootable usb fixit-key" during install might be enough. (keep it in an envelope taped to the side of the machine :-). > > NOTE: You can try it out yourself. I made publicly-available the > latest version recently as part-of the FreeBSD-9.0_Druid-1.0b57.iso > up on druidbsd.sf.net (boot the ISO, select > "freebsd", then select "Interactive Disk Repair Shell" and answer > guided questions to create a working environment copacetic to fixing > even the worst situations). It even has a mode where it will start > SSHD from the boot media so that *someone-ELSE* can log in remotely > and fix your non-bootable system (which we've had to use before -- > it's a real life-saver when someone in Manila for example has no > FreeBSD knowledge but can at least boot a system with a CD and > answer some basic questions). true, though I'd like to see if it can be done without the whole extra CD.. > > Here's a screenshot that shows that DruidBSD has had the ability to > swap out the root filesystem image with a "rescue image" for nearly > a decade (this one screenshot taken 3 years ago): > > http://twitpic.com/16spp2 > > -- > Devin > _____________ > The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or > confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) > delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute > or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender > immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed > to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other > than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 22:39:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2321065673; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:39:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6704B8FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:39:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa01.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97MdlvG021802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:39:47 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:39:46 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Devin Teske Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:39:45 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske Subject: Tell the user we're booting X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:39:48 -0000 Hi, I'd like to propose a small (tiny even) patch to sys/boot/forth/loader.4th Said patch will echo "Booting=85" before invoking the kernel. This patch would effect every architecture (even those that don't use the b= eastie menu). The reason for proposing this tiny change is that as of 9.0-R I've noticed = a significant lag between executing "boot" and getting something on-screen = to show that something is happening. On my circa 2006 white Macbook (Intel, 4GB of RAM) running VMware Fusion 5,= FreeBSD 9.0-R GENERIC kernel takes on-average 3.76 seconds from the point = I hit ENTER on the "boot" command to the point that kernel messages start a= ppearing on-screen. I've had this patch applied to DruidBSD for almost a decade but have neglec= ted to request this enhancement for FreeBSD. Largely because it wasn't need= ed, but now that I'm seeing significant delays on older hardware (with GENE= RIC), I feel it dramatically increases perceived performance (simply by pro= viding feedback -- doubly important in the menu environment where the user = hits ENTER and nothing happens for 3-4 seconds). --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 22:48:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BD4106564A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:48:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-da0-f54.google.com (mail-da0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9FD8FC0C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:48:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-da0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z9so1355642dad.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:48:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=vq/AjXrSpV9VyFi3SstzJgRGWfsP/vMukQ5fbiIyp+U=; b=omtnumdTtALYFcd91997sPvFH0B+DkOolwIeK6OAyV1E5X7WTqj66kIo6fApwz4UYp JNngmNQwUz/YSK14Uwtb8hhdLr93arou+86jwAPZxDvyxLjBfx9DDeyn2nk3eHCwNlEy RAoDVHM7Ew2GdiTyl0gbMsZfoIsYo9IUtST4ajNbaJrE4meL3Wi6Xcf6uU4sKbfoGhRp FvZnzRlXryd5i1rljSjBR/DBIPN/ouYuBwthCBMwxWUtKX7638gtJ9OVMcD+0x//o4oe SSj3NjHUiy5SvRxj4kLEP+LOrq8FN6/jV5SpJMeKELh1tD9pjng4MPQJYAne8j1ia9tt 3dpw== Received: by 10.68.233.230 with SMTP id tz6mr36522627pbc.36.1349650096873; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e9sm9773012pay.34.2012.10.07.15.48.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: <5072033A.4090308@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:48:57 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> <5072033A.4090308@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:48:18 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > Pico, or Nano? > I know that Pico no longer fits on a single floppy but it's still = pretty damned small. Have to be Pico. Nano is still too big by default (unless you pull = almost every feature and non-essential piece, the lowest I've gotten a = running image so far is 124MB unpacked with a GENERIC kernel. Granted, = if it wasn't GENERIC that would save 10~20 MB, but there are still other = things that need to be trimmed from the base system (another effort for = another day/thread). ... > true, though I'd like to see if it can be done without the whole extra = CD.. Should be doable with a ~64MB USB stick. I did an ok job [without = NanoBSD/PicoBSD] creating a thin client with X11 with ~140MB space used = and I wasn't trying terribly hard to pare things down (especially if = it's a compressed mfsroot :]=85). -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 22:52:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E281106566C; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:52:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-da0-f54.google.com (mail-da0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5368FC1A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:52:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-da0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z9so1356731dad.13 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=ipb15ngoBFeBhIrg0YxUWfK8rJW8dPfPjViLnf4XPfw=; b=jyRVNvAfVX8N1DX25idOo5oIHXoccoo9UT8GwIrPYiEciGNHljqNVbl7UIMlu5bdFJ HB/t+rBdbsMkHVcZ5VdYFSYhKgCxyL8ztW0v62UoG2ZzKBUSYqodfnJWKydFNs3djjNY uFSkzapoikqCjnD+qy8EwVKEd3Ra0QbIeRw08pyNS1GcGORiDkZlqBr9oQPBBM+IuNYr P0pwQ/SuebEO8gSO9EQ+sFL5TkhqHVNDvv4roztILDQhuQKCk6v4dyFUsfbGY/ezR1M6 Adf/CVMrzaWVi1szv8BrzCyqX59Iuh7FbOBQJS/LI1Ky+xexH3nbJ9LQaz9cn1nCBNvm QOkQ== Received: by 10.68.204.2 with SMTP id ku2mr48743837pbc.59.1349650362567; Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sj5sm9665805pbc.30.2012.10.07.15.52.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:53:27 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Devin Teske X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the user we're booting X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:52:43 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Devin Teske wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I'd like to propose a small (tiny even) patch to = sys/boot/forth/loader.4th >=20 > Said patch will echo "Booting=85" before invoking the kernel. >=20 > This patch would effect every architecture (even those that don't use = the beastie menu). >=20 > The reason for proposing this tiny change is that as of 9.0-R I've = noticed a significant lag between executing "boot" and getting something = on-screen to show that something is happening. This is probably the memory test (set "hw.memtest.tests" to "0" = in loader.conf and see if that speeds things up). Regardless, I think = it'd be a good thing to have. Thanks! -Garrett PS Got patch?= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 23:10:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0233C106566B; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:10:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73048FC08; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:10:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.16]) by ltcfislmsgpa03.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97NAYa4008799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:10:34 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:10:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_293A43D5-87B6-4CBC-A47B-F6BDE3C45D69" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:10:31 -0700 Message-ID: <6DBE2255-40A3-452B-A503-04AF6A3FBE42@fisglobal.com> References: To: Garrett Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the user we're booting X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 23:10:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_293A43D5-87B6-4CBC-A47B-F6BDE3C45D69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> I'd like to propose a small (tiny even) patch to sys/boot/forth/loader.4= th >>=20 >> Said patch will echo "Booting=85" before invoking the kernel. >>=20 >> This patch would effect every architecture (even those that don't use th= e beastie menu). >>=20 >> The reason for proposing this tiny change is that as of 9.0-R I've notic= ed a significant lag between executing "boot" and getting something on-scre= en to show that something is happening. >=20 > This is probably the memory test (set "hw.memtest.tests" to "0" in loade= r.conf and see if that speeds things up). Regardless, I think it'd be a goo= d thing to have. > Thanks! > -Garrett >=20 > PS Got patch? Here's patch: _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. --Apple-Mail=_293A43D5-87B6-4CBC-A47B-F6BDE3C45D69 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patch.txt" Content-Type: text/plain; name="patch.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Index: color.4th.8 =================================================================== --- color.4th.8 (revision 241310) +++ color.4th.8 (working copy) @@ -50,7 +50,7 @@ .Dl include color.4th .Pp This line is present in -.Pa /boot/beastie.4th +.Pa /boot/loader.4th file, so it is not needed (and should not be re-issued) in a normal setup. .Pp The commands provided by it are: @@ -102,7 +102,6 @@ .Sh SEE ALSO .Xr loader.conf 5 , .Xr loader 8 , -.Xr beastie.4th 8 , .Xr loader.4th 8 .Sh HISTORY The Index: loader.4th =================================================================== --- loader.4th (revision 241310) +++ loader.4th (working copy) @@ -40,6 +40,7 @@ 2048 dictincrease ! \ 2048 additional cells each time include /boot/support.4th +include /boot/color.4th only forth also support-functions also builtins definitions @@ -64,6 +65,12 @@ : boot 0= if ( interpreted ) get_arguments then + loader_color? if + ." Booting..." cr + else + ." Booting..." cr + then + \ Unload only if a path was passed dup if >r over r> swap Index: beastie.4th =================================================================== --- beastie.4th (revision 241310) +++ beastie.4th (working copy) @@ -28,7 +28,6 @@ marker task-beastie.4th -include /boot/color.4th include /boot/delay.4th variable logoX --Apple-Mail=_293A43D5-87B6-4CBC-A47B-F6BDE3C45D69-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 7 23:21:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCB31065670; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:21:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8739A8FC0A; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:21:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.31]) by ltcfislmsgpa06.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q97NL3B6030846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:21:03 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:21:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <5072033A.4090308@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 16:20:59 -0700 Message-ID: <338616C0-F1EC-409B-B044-ADBB62ECFE38@fisglobal.com> References: <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <86k3v21qsx.fsf@ds4.des.no> <3EB58454-7820-43C4-911E-7DEF2D02C880@fisglobal.com> <86fw5q15f9.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5071EAB2.4060003@freebsd.org> <5072033A.4090308@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Garrett Cooper , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Boot Loader Menu X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 23:21:07 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 10/7/12 2:10 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >>=20 >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 1:48 PM, Julian Elischer wrote: >>=20 >>> On 10/7/12 12:52 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>>> I'd like to see sketches or a general idea of what you have in mind be= fore investing too much time in a direction that doesn't bear a lot of frui= t. I'm sure others here agree. >>> It'd be interesting to see if we could get a boot loader that has an op= tion to boot a backup >>> image, or maybe off network.. I know that by the time we got this far w= e are supposed to be >>> beyond that, but who knows what is actually possible. >>>=20 >>> I'd love to see a picoBSD image available for booting in emergencies. W= hether in it's own partition, >>> or just a file in the root partition (or wherever) that can be loaded a= s a root filesystem. >>> having the ability to recover from really bad screwups is why you need = the menus in the first place usually. >>>=20 >>> not sure what is really possible. >>>=20 >>=20 >> *huge smiles* >>=20 >> Have you been talking to old VICORians about what I've been working on h= ere? haha >>=20 >> It's like you stole a page out of my playbook. >>=20 >> I've been working on this for years (slowly making the infrastructure ch= anges in DruidBSD to accommodate this, and slowly trying to work th= at code back into FreeBSD). >>=20 >> NOTE: DruidBSD at it's core (when it's not being re-purposed as a multi-= media FreeBSD universal installation platform) is actually smaller than Pic= oBSD. >=20 > Pico, or Nano? > I know that Pico no longer fits on a single floppy but it's still pretty = damned small. >=20 The DruidBSD core image is a 1.9MB gzip-compressed floppy image (mfsroot.gz= ). NOTE: Of course, that doesn't include a kernel. When you get it all assembl= ed, it's still under 24MB (tho I could make that much smaller if I really w= anted). Funny story: Our company handed out 32MB (!!) thumb drives a couple years ago (yes, in 2= 010 !! they handed out 32MB !! thumb drives). Being almost completely usele= ss for any other means, I decided (no, _set out_) to create the _most_ usef= ul boot device possible from these paltry 32MB storage devices (which other= wise would have ended up in the trash). I successfully loaded DruidBSD _and= _ about 10 other great tools onto it (including memtest, windiag, memtest+,= seatools, dban, firmware updates, hdt, spinrite, tuff-test pro, and more);= everything easily usable with a graphical menu (using ISOLINUX and the ves= amenu com32 module) -- all still under the 32MB mark. An earlier version (sans corporate property, of course, such as spinrite an= d tuff-test pro enterprise-licensed copies) can be downloaded here: http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download.shtml#DruidBSD >>=20 >> In the past month, I used DruidBSD maybe 5-dozen times to rescue an unbo= otable system. Which system? the system I was developing the boot loader on= (haha). >=20 > so, the question is, were does the boot come from and where does it load = the image from? usb-key? I'd recommend keeping it in /boot However, for situations where you can't trust /boot you really would want t= o have an external device (with it's own copy of the boot files -- as in su= ch situations, you really can't trust _anything_ in /boot so you'd _want_ t= he external device to be your boot device with its own pristine copies). I'd say FreeBSD could use both: a. menu system that can load (for example) a /boot/rescue_mfsroot.gz in tim= es-of-need b. a small, tiny ISO with the same rescue scripts as rescue_mfsroot.gz in t= imes-of-need when /boot can't be trusted For (b) above, sure we have "-bootonly" media, but it's not imbued with any= scripts like what DruidBSD has (see http://druidbsd.cvs.sourceforge.net/vi= ewvc/druidbsd/druidbsd/druid/src/freebsd/menu/scripts/repair?revision=3D1.2= &view=3Dmarkup for the actual script I'm talking about) Rather, for (b) I'm talking about having an ISO that anybody in-need can do= wnload where said ISO is (a) small (b) built for rescue duty of any hardwar= e in any shape. Of course, there's no reason why the -bootonly media couldn't _become_ that= rescue disc with a little work. >>=20 >> Everytime I would make a mistake (and subsequently end up in BTX halt, p= anic free guard1, or other fatal condition), I simply reboot, boot DruidBSD= , and within 3 keystrokes I have my system mounted read-write with all the = tools I need to fix it. In less than 20 seconds, I've often corrected my mi= stake and have a working system again. >=20 > to some extent I'd like to see some recoverability like this for default = freeBSD. even the old "create a bootable usb fixit-key" during install mig= ht be enough. > (keep it in an envelope taped to the side of the machine :-). >=20 Definitely on the radar. I've even talked (briefly) with jpaetzel about thi= s. A lot of DruidBSD is all about building a better/smarter install platform t= hat has integrated automation, rescue, and cloning abilities. I'd really li= ke to see FreeBSD's installer (whatever that may be; currently bsdinstall) = embrace some of the pc-sysinstall features that jpaetzel and I talked about= in our last meeting. Such as the ability to boot a system from external me= dia, run a tool to detail the filesystem configuration, and then save that = config to a file for later use (either in setting up a machine with the sam= e characteristics or as a means of rescuing the same box in trying times). My plan is to (some day) hunker down and use bsdinstall and bsdconfig to ac= hieve this. However it's going to be a long process. Part of this long process is going to be the enhancements to the loader men= u that this thread has talked so much about. Another large part of this pro= cess is going to be simply bringing back the ability to use an mfsroot (som= ething that was lost-in-transition from 8 to 9). There are a LOT of systemic things that need to be broached before we can g= et to the promised land of integrated rescue (I've even envisaged the chang= es necessary at the release engineering level). But, =85 for now, DruidBSD is there for all of us to lean-on (and I'll cont= inue to release new/more-interesting DruidBSD products -- such as the micro= -rescue-image we're talking about here). >>=20 >> NOTE: You can try it out yourself. I made publicly-available the latest = version recently as part-of the FreeBSD-9.0_Druid-1.0b57.iso up on druidbsd= .sf.net (boot the ISO, select "freebsd", then select "Interactive Disk Repa= ir Shell" and answer guided questions to create a working environment copac= etic to fixing even the worst situations). It even has a mode where it will= start SSHD from the boot media so that *someone-ELSE* can log in remotely = and fix your non-bootable system (which we've had to use before -- it's a r= eal life-saver when someone in Manila for example has no FreeBSD knowledge = but can at least boot a system with a CD and answer some basic questions). > true, though I'd like to see if it can be done without the whole extra CD= .. >=20 Right-o. I'm telling people in the above, that if they want to try out this= "rescue functionality" (which _doesn't_ require a whole extra CD) they cur= rently _must_ use a whole extra CD because the "rescue_mfsroot.gz" hasn't b= een published "in the raw" (but if you dig in CVSweb you can download it di= rectly for inspection). --=20 Devin >>=20 >> Here's a screenshot that shows that DruidBSD has had the ability to swap= out the root filesystem image with a "rescue image" for nearly a decade (t= his one screenshot taken 3 years ago): >>=20 >> http://twitpic.com/16spp2 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Devin >> _____________ >> The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confiden= tial. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message= and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any= manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aw= are that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and re= view by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. >=20 _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 8 00:31:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631EB106566B; Mon, 8 Oct 2012 00:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E878FC0A; Mon, 8 Oct 2012 00:31:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa05.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q980V1p3014013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:31:01 -0500 Received: from [10.0.0.103] (10.14.152.61) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.309.2; Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:30:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: Devin Teske In-Reply-To: <6DBE2255-40A3-452B-A503-04AF6A3FBE42@fisglobal.com> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 17:30:58 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <6DBE2255-40A3-452B-A503-04AF6A3FBE42@fisglobal.com> To: Garrett Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.61] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.7.7855, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-10-07_05:2012-10-06, 2012-10-07, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: Adrian Chadd , Devin Teske , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the user we're booting X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Devin Teske List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 00:31:02 -0000 On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >=20 > On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: >=20 >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Devin Teske wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> I'd like to propose a small (tiny even) patch to sys/boot/forth/loader.= 4th >>>=20 >>> Said patch will echo "Booting=85" before invoking the kernel. >>>=20 >>> This patch would effect every architecture (even those that don't use t= he beastie menu). >>>=20 >>> The reason for proposing this tiny change is that as of 9.0-R I've noti= ced a significant lag between executing "boot" and getting something on-scr= een to show that something is happening. >>=20 >> This is probably the memory test (set "hw.memtest.tests" to "0" in load= er.conf and see if that speeds things up). woah-nelly! I don't think I can count "one" before I see stuff show up on-s= creen. That's surely-it. >> Regardless, I think it'd be a good thing to have. Excellent, I'll move forward with the tiny patch. Thanks. Glad to improve t= he responsiveness (even if-only perceived). --=20 Devin P.S. You'll notice in the patch a ``strange'' ANSI color (37;44) when loade= r_color=3DYES, that's white-text on blue-background. That's a color that we= 've been using for nearly a decade and it seems to work quite well. I think= I read somewhere that blue is very soothing and calming (and that Disney k= nows this very well -- and is why they use a specific percentage of blue in= their movie previews). But hey, =85 we *could* change it (/me runs to comm= it ^_^) >> Thanks! >> -Garrett >>=20 >> PS Got patch? >=20 > Here's patch: >=20 > _____________ > The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confident= ial. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message = and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any = manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be awa= re that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and rev= iew by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. > _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.